ABC Radio
Late Night Live
Interviewed by Phillip Adama
17 June 2010
PHILLIP ADAMS: The last time I spoke to David on this programme was in 2005 when his country was in free fall. Stories of extraordinary political and social upheaval, of famine, the collapse of the rule of law, the descent into political violence, the hyperinflation, etc – and it only got worse during the elections of 2008. Now David is a Senator in what is known as the Unity Government and he is Minister for Education, Sport, Arts and Culture. He’s in Australia to discuss sporting relations between Australia and Zimbabwe, especially in relation to the upcoming cricket tours, but I want to talk to David about how the Unity Government is faring, and has it managed to effect a transformation.
David, how unified is the Unity Government?
DAVID COLTART: Well first of all, hello Phillip. It’s good to speak to you again after five years.
How is it performing? Well it’s a fragile arrangement. All of us who went into this in September 2008 from the MDC perspective knew that it would be problematic. This is an amalgamation of protagonists. We’ve gone into bed with people who have spent a good decade trying to kill us and bury us, and they are clearly – or at least elements of them are clearly – determined to remain in power at any cost and they see this arrangement as an opportunity to prolong their power and perhaps work out some scheme of arrangement which will keep them in power.
ADAMS: But David you also identify within your erstwhile enemies the moderates who support more rational economic policies and are prepared to contemplate a loss of power, and those who don’t like power sharing but will endure it.
COLTART: Yes, absolutely. There are three clear factions within ZANU-PF in Cabinet which you’ve spelt out correctly. There’s a group under one of the Vice Presidents who like this Agreement and are prepared to implement it fully. There’s a group under Mugabe himself – who funnily enough I don’t put under the hardliners – who don’t like the Agreement but recognise it provides them with a political soft landing. They interpret the Agreement subjectively, push the envelope as far as they can, but ultimately they don’t want to break it. And then of course there are hardliners. They tend to be 20 years younger than Mugabe, they’ve committed acts of corruption, some crimes against humanity, and they are deeply fearful about what will happen in a post-Mugabe situation. They know that ultimately if this Agreement stays on track it’s going to yield a transition to democracy, or at least more democracy than we have at present, and they fear that.
ADAMS: David, let’s look at the things we were talking about before and see where there have been improvements. I have in my possession a few trillion dollars of Zimbabwean currency. What’s happened to inflation? What’s happened to the economy in total?
COLTART: Well the economy is the one relative success story. Of course, you’ve got to put it in the context of hyperinflation and one of the fastest declining economies the world has ever seen, but in the 15 months since what we call not a Unity Government but a Transitional Inclusive Government was formed, inflation has been tackled. In fact it was tackled within a week of us abolishing the Zimbabwe currency and adopting the US currency as our currency. The economy off a very small and low base increased 13% in 2009.
ADAMS: That’s a figure which would have most governments around the world green with envy.
COLTART: It’s not 13% growth of the Australian economy. As I said, it’s 13% growth off a tiny, tiny base.
ADAMS: But it’s a real growth, isn’t it?
COLTART: Yes, it’s a real growth, and we see many green shoots coming through. Shops which were empty 15 months ago are now stocked with food. A number of companies, in fact most companies, say that they are starting to stabilise. Some sectors – mining, tourism – are seeing quite significant growth. One of the sectors that I control, Education, in the private sector of Education we’ve seen a lot of growth – private schools stabilising, building. So there are positive signs. There are other positive signs regarding human rights, for example. Whilst there are ongoing human rights abuses, the number of disappearances and the incidence of torture have all dropped pretty dramatically in the last 15 months.
ADAMS: I understand there’s been no know incidents of torture in that time period, and those that were disappeared were subsequently found.
COLTART: Well yes, in the last 15 months. Prior to that of course many 10s disappeared and have never been found again. But that is the case in the last 15 months.
ADAMS: David, forgive me for saying this, but while you’re telling me good news there seems to be a sadness in your voice.
COLTART: Probably my sadness is that I’ve been on the road for six days and I’m completely jet-lagged. I’m a lot more optimistic than my voice may suggest.
ADAMS: Ok, I just wanted to make sure you were ok. Now, there’s news lately about abuses being perpetrated by the military at one of the diamond mines in Zimbabwe. How do you deal with something like this in the coalition?
COLTART: Well, it’s been a fascinating experience to be in this Cabinet in the last 15 months. I’m certainly taking notes for some book in future. But one thing that has emerged from this is that there was clearly an unwritten rule prior to the Inclusive Government that ZANU-PF Ministers would not speak about each other’s corruption. What has now happened is that we get these reports of corruption and we are raising them in Cabinet; they’re generally aghast when they hear an issue discussed. But of course, as is the case in most acts of corruption the world over, the person bribing can only bribe a few people at a time. And so what has happened is that we will raise an issue, those that have been bribed attempt to defend the indefensible but the rest of their colleagues, having not been bribed, can see the ridiculous nature of their defence and they have tended to back us. And so in at least two corruption scandals that have come to the attention of Cabinet we’ve managed to kill the issue with support from Robert Mugabe and many ZANU-PF Cabinet Ministers. There are some issues that we are still confronting where, because of the particular wealth of perhaps a mineral find, a lot more people have been bribed and so it’s a harder issue to tackle.
ADAMS: I’m talking to Senator David Coltart, Minister for Education, Sport, Arts and Culture – a terrific portfolio, or series of portfolios, David – In the Zimbabwe Transitional Inclusive Government. How has Mugabe behaving these days as a person, as a human being?
COLTART: Well he came into this Inclusive Government very tense. My personal dealings with him for the first 6-8 months were problematic, as were the relations between him and most of my MDC colleagues. I have to say though that he appears to have mellowed. I think that the reason Mugabe supports this is because he does now recognise that he’s not going to end up in the Hague, he’s not going to end up in exile – and to that extent he supports this arrangement.
I think regarding me personally, the one aspect of Mugabe that I have admired is that in the 1980s he was responsible for the expansion of Education in Zimbabwe and he’s clearly a person, despite his other faults, who has this deep rooted desire to educate Zimbabweans. I think that he recognises that perhaps I’m trying to do the right thing, and he has, funnily enough, supported me in a range of different education policies that I’m trying to promote. But he remains a very wily politician. It’s quite disconcerting in fact to see how bright and alert an 86 year old can be. But he thankfully at least personally is trying to make the thing work, even if some of his colleagues are not.
ADAMS: David, how does he feel about the constitutional reform process? I know that in a sense he knows it’s all over for him, but how is his response to the notion of limiting presidential terms for example?
COLTART: There’s an intriguing thing going on in this constitutional process, because I think many in ZANU understand that if we have a vaguely free and fair election they’re going to be out of power. And so we’ve even had advertisements placed by ZANU-PF recently now claiming for limited presidential terms. I mean it’s highly ironic to hear that coming from ZANU, and clearly it’s done with Mugabe’s authorisation. He realises he’s in the twilight of his political career and now he’s agreeing to controls he was never prepared to subject himself to.
ADAMS: That’s one of the advantages of being 86. Now David there’s meant to be a process of countrywide consultation. Is it proceeding? And if so, is it working?
COLTART: Well the constitutional reform process was meant to take 18 months in total, starting in February last year, and we haven’t even begun the consultation process in earnest. One of the tactics employed by those who are worried about where this Agreement is going to lead is to delay the whole process. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the consultation process only began yesterday so it hasn’t been tested yet and we’ll have to wait and see.
Having said that though, there’s a fairly remarkable thing going on in Zimbabwe. You know we’ve had a constitutional debate in our country, an intense constitutional debate, going on for some 12 years. So many of these issues have been widely discussed from urban centres to rural villages and there’s broad consensus, even in ZANU-PF strongholds, that we need a new democratic constitution. And so I’m fairly optimistic about the consultation process and I think it might yield some very interesting results.
ADAMS: David our next story is with a namesake of yours, David James Smith, on young Nelson Mandela, which of course reminds me of the splendid constitution that South Africa have put together. Will Zimbabwe’s be as aspirational in expression?
COLTART: No, unfortunately – well let me just digress for a moment. Some of my friends call me a pathological optimist and despite that pathological optimism, I regret to say that I don’t think that it will be as aspirational as the South African constitution, simply because we have different leaders. We don’t have a Nelson Mandela, we don’t have a Frederick de Klerk; we don’t have visionaries. Morgan Tsvangirai is a wonderful person, a courageous person, but I think even he would acknowledge he’s not in the same league as Nelson Mandela. And certainly Mugabe’s not in the same league as de Klerk. De Klerk had acknowledged that his time for ruling was up and he focused on trying to entrench human rights in the constitution, whereas I think Mugabe and his colleagues are more interested in manipulating the process as best they can to entrench their own position.
ADAMS: In the short time we’ve got left, a couple of other questions: Any improvements in regard to freedom of the press?
COLTART: Well there are a few. As regards the electronic media there are very few to boast about. Television and radio are still tightly controlled by ZANU-PF. There have been no independent stations opened up, and whilst those of us in the MDC have had much greater access than we’ve ever had before it’s still tightly controlled. In the print media though we have a new media commission that has some very good people – independent people – on it for the first time. They have recently granted two licences, which may seem unremarkable to your Australian listeners but it’s quite remarkable in the Zimbabwean context. Last week a new independent daily, News Day, started and another independent daily is just about to commence publication in a few weeks’ time.
ADAMS: Ok David, the last thing I want to raise with you is you’ve talked quite warmly about Mugabe in relation to education. I know you’re having an immense struggle in this part of your portfolio, but I very much like the notion you’ve come up with of Centres of Excellence where you address the needs of the very talented but disadvantaged children.
COLTART: Philip I’m astounded – you’ve done your homework this evening. Yes, this is something that I’m pursuing. My first objective as Minister for Education is to try to restore basic education for all Zimbabwean children. Education has been grossly underfunded and our once fine education system is in tatters. Anyway, I’m not going to speak about that first objective but suffice it to say that even if I achieve in restoring a basic education I’m deeply concerned about the plights of talented but disadvantaged children who may drown in the mediocrity of a basic education. And so what we are proposing is to identify certain Government schools that in the past have had superb facilities which have degenerated, and we will pour money into those schools. We will identify the most talented school heads and teachers, and create a scholarship fund, identify these talented but disadvantaged children and feed them into these schools so that we can nurture their talent. Let me stress that we’re not just looking at academically talented kids, but also athletically and also artistically talented.
ADAMS: David, to say to any politician in your country “break a leg†is probably insensitive, but you know what I’m saying. More power, and please travel safely. Congratulations on what you have achieved already and we’ll talk again I hope without waiting three years. Senator David Coltart, who’s a member of the Zimbabwe Transitional Inclusive Government, indeed he’s Minister of Education, Sport, Arts and Culture. We’re staying in Africa to talk to David James Smith about young Nelson Mandela on LNL on ABC Radio National.
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